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Vegeta & Super Saiyan 4 - Myth Dispelled
Topic Started: Oct 24 2011, 03:10 PM (10,288 Views)
Paikuan extreme May 28 2012, 05:25 PM Post #16
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 thats an assumption. Claiming you cant do that.

and if its true? then whats with the strength gains? no, in order for vegeta to be as strong as goku, he needs to be as strong as goku.

Otherwise then vegeta saw NO strength gain in turning SSj4.

meaning he remained at his SSJ2 power state.

Explaining why he got whooped by fire and ice when he was fresh, and goku was blind, tired and hungry.
Edited by Paikuan extreme, May 28 2012, 05:26 PM.
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Prince.Vegeta May 28 2012, 05:42 PM Post #17
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Ninjajp247
May 28 2012, 05:25 PM
thats an assumption. Claiming you cant do that.

and if its true? then whats with the strength gains? no, in order for vegeta to be as strong as goku, he needs to be as strong as goku.

Otherwise then vegeta saw NO strength gain in turning SSj4.

meaning he remained at his SSJ2 power state.

Explaining why he got whooped by fire and ice when he was fresh, and goku was blind, tired and hungry.
you mean Vegeta had no strength gain at all, and his transforming into SSJ4 was a funny veneer that made him look cool and scare the ***** out of Omega Shenron?
What's the point in fusion when neither of the fusees is euqally matched in power?
Each level of transformation has its litmit and standard in strength. It's always safe to assume that the next level of ssj is always more powerful than the previous, as ssj2 is much stronger than the normal ssj, meaning ssj4 is the strongest and the ultimate form of all ssj level.

Although it's unclear that ssj form of the same level in different person has the same power. But the gap between them is not significant to be the point.
Vegeta in SSJ4 is as strong as Goku in the same level standard. The fact that Goku could endure longer than Vegeta may be because he reached ssj4 years before Vegeta so that he had more time getting adapted to the form as well as training.


Edited by Prince.Vegeta, May 28 2012, 05:44 PM.
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Paikuan extreme May 28 2012, 05:58 PM Post #18
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 doesnt explain why people think vegeta is just as strong as goku when he shouldnt be.

By the way? the metamorran fusion only requires the same ki output, not the same max level of strength. Goku can lower his ki anytime he gets ready to match vegeta. Thats not the issue.

The issue is vegeta turning SSJ4 and being just as strong as goku. Some like to believe stronger.

Goku was a master of that form, and vegeta couldnt do it without the machine, huge diff IMO.
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+ Pyrus May 28 2012, 06:48 PM Post #19
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none of this is wrong, but at the same time ELDER kai KNEW!!

so in that sense bulma was WAYYY behind in the science area.

Vegeta DID cheat, he never achieved SSj3, so in alot of peoples eyes he didnt put his work in.

What does SSjin 3 have to do with it?
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Pretty much it, otherwise science played a major role in it for both of them.

Its just that the kais didnt need machines to do it. It was a natural process for goku. Not vegeta.

I wouldn't call it a natural process even for Goku. Both of them had help in some form.
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SSj virus- REALLY? vegeta himself has admitted goku is better in BOTH series and the manga, get over it.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
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and anyone believing vegeta is just as strong as goku despite all kinds of proof he wasnt? is just wishfully thinking.

cause then youre basically saying that goku didnt get ANY stronger in the two years since he had gone SSJ4 and the time since he went limits surpassed. No way is vegeta the same strength, he was SSJ4 for all of 5 minutes compared to gokus 2 years and beyond.

So? Time means jack except in the field of control. The proof is in the show. Neither of them had to lower their power to fuse with the other, and it's never mentioned either. They had to have been the same strength for that to happen.
Edited by Pyrus, May 28 2012, 06:49 PM.
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Prince.Vegeta May 28 2012, 06:59 PM Post #20
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I mean, the minimum strength when one turns into a SSJ4 is the same for Vegeta and Goku. Maybe Goku was stronger than Vegeta at the time Vegeta reached SSJ4 due to years of battling experience and training in the form. With proper amount of time and strict regime of training,Vegeta would be able to achieve what Goku did .
When having to push themselves to their limits and beyond, both would end up fighting evenly matched.

At the time of the fusion, Goku, I'm afraid, wasn't the one who lowered his ki to match that of Vegeta. It was the other way around, Vegeta was the one who dropped his power level to the same as Goku's. Lol.

Well, Let's say Vegeta just accelerated his process of ascending to ssj4. Otherwise, he can wait till his tail grows back and take a romantic stroll under a full-moon night to finish the job. That Goku was able to turn into SSJ4 was just a ridiculous series of sheer luck. If the tail had never grown again even when he was wished back to a child form, then the whole stupid ssj4 thing would never have troubled us like crazy.

It's undeniable that Vegeta just unveiled and simplified the mechanism of SSJ4 anyway.
Edited by Prince.Vegeta, May 28 2012, 07:06 PM.
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Prince.Vegeta May 28 2012, 07:05 PM Post #21
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Just put the comparison aside. Can anybody tell me whether Vegeta would be able to turn into SSJ4 like Goku did without any outside help? Like turning into ssj in a blink of eye?
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Paikuan extreme May 28 2012, 08:24 PM Post #22
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Darth Pyrus
May 28 2012, 06:48 PM
Quote:
 
none of this is wrong, but at the same time ELDER kai KNEW!!

so in that sense bulma was WAYYY behind in the science area.

Vegeta DID cheat, he never achieved SSj3, so in alot of peoples eyes he didnt put his work in.

What does SSjin 3 have to do with it?
Quote:
 
Pretty much it, otherwise science played a major role in it for both of them.

Its just that the kais didnt need machines to do it. It was a natural process for goku. Not vegeta.

I wouldn't call it a natural process even for Goku. Both of them had help in some form.
Quote:
 
SSj virus- REALLY? vegeta himself has admitted goku is better in BOTH series and the manga, get over it.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
Quote:
 
and anyone believing vegeta is just as strong as goku despite all kinds of proof he wasnt? is just wishfully thinking.

cause then youre basically saying that goku didnt get ANY stronger in the two years since he had gone SSJ4 and the time since he went limits surpassed. No way is vegeta the same strength, he was SSJ4 for all of 5 minutes compared to gokus 2 years and beyond.

So? Time means jack except in the field of control. The proof is in the show. Neither of them had to lower their power to fuse with the other, and it's never mentioned either. They had to have been the same strength for that to happen.
wrong, cause if that were true then goku couldnt fuse with anyone BUT vegeta or gohan, and he was looking for tien.

Goku can lower his power as much as he wants.

Not having any reason for vegeta to be as strong as goku.

Especially since it was limit surpassed goku he fused with. dead tired and hungry.

Says alot.
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Kblo247 May 28 2012, 09:03 PM Post #23
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Prince.Vegeta
May 28 2012, 07:05 PM
Just put the comparison aside. Can anybody tell me whether Vegeta would be able to turn into SSJ4 like Goku did without any outside help? Like turning into ssj in a blink of eye?
Can't as adults don't regrow their tails permanently. Goku had a kids body so his tail was able to be brought back full time
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Paikuan extreme May 28 2012, 09:30 PM Post #24
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 i guess thats true since vegeta only lost his tail once, but i also remember him saying it grows back ONE time after its removed.
Edited by Paikuan extreme, May 28 2012, 09:30 PM.
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Kblo247 May 29 2012, 01:06 AM Post #25
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 Well we never see Vegetas grow back in all of Z or GT. He uses the waves both times from Bulma to be a Gold Ape and an artificial tail is basically grown with the properties of a real one, Maybe he had a little one like Goku did, but Vegeta ain't letting Old Kai play grab @$$ with him especially since he is a grown man
Edited by Kblo247, May 29 2012, 01:07 AM.
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Billa May 29 2012, 03:49 AM Post #26
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Thala na Gethu!
Prince.Vegeta
May 28 2012, 06:59 PM
I mean, the minimum strength when one turns into a SSJ4 is the same for Vegeta and Goku. Maybe Goku was stronger than Vegeta at the time Vegeta reached SSJ4 due to years of battling experience and training in the form. With proper amount of time and strict regime of training,Vegeta would be able to achieve what Goku did .
When having to push themselves to their limits and beyond, both would end up fighting evenly matched.

At the time of the fusion, Goku, I'm afraid, wasn't the one who lowered his ki to match that of Vegeta. It was the other way around, Vegeta was the one who dropped his power level to the same as Goku's. Lol.

Well, Let's say Vegeta just accelerated his process of ascending to ssj4. Otherwise, he can wait till his tail grows back and take a romantic stroll under a full-moon night to finish the job. That Goku was able to turn into SSJ4 was just a ridiculous series of sheer luck. If the tail had never grown again even when he was wished back to a child form, then the whole stupid ssj4 thing would never have troubled us like crazy.

It's undeniable that Vegeta just unveiled and simplified the mechanism of SSJ4 anyway.
He's got a point.
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Paikuan extreme May 29 2012, 04:14 AM Post #27
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 grab *****? uh, old kai made goku use a giant coffee grinder but it took too long.

so when his little stub popped out? at GOKUS insistance the tail was pulled out, so he could hurry up and help the others. Especially since they all thought him dead.

so pulling the tail was against the advice of elder kai, who was training goku like miyagi did daniel san.

Goku knew it, but he was impatient. He probably would have been stronger or more in control if he had followed old kais natural process.

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DarkWolf26 May 30 2012, 11:21 PM Post #28
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How Did Vegeta Become A Super Saiyan 4?
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